Message-Id: <9211120813.AA01639@mv.MV.COM>
Date:    Wed, 11 Nov 92 22:13 CST
To: TK0JUT1@NIU.BITNET
From: TK0JUT2%NIU.bitnet@UICVM.UIC.EDU
Subject: Cu Digest, #4.57


Computer underground Digest    Wed Nov 11, 1992   Volume 4 : Issue 57

       Editors: Jim Thomas and Gordon Meyer (TK0JUT2@NIU.BITNET)
       Archivist: Brendan Kehoe
       Shadow-Archivists: Dan Carosone / Paul Southworth
                          Ralph Sims / Jyrki Kuoppala
       Coyp Editor: Etaion Shrdlu, Junior

CONTENTS, #4.57 (Nov 11, 1992)
File 1--2600 Meeting Disrupted by Secret Service?
FIle 2--2600 Meeting Disrupted by Law Enforcement
FIle 3--Reports Of "Raid" On 2600 Washington Meeting
FIle 4--More first-hand Accounts
FIle 5--Confusion About Secret Service Role In "2600 Washington Raid"
FIle 6--Conflicting Stories In 2600 Raid; CRSR Files FOIA
FIle 7--Transcript from Al Johnson Interview

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Jim Thomas, Department of Sociology, NIU, DeKalb, IL 60115.

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed 11 Nov 1992 18:23:55
From: Moderators<tk0jut2@mvs.cso.niu.edu>
Subject: File 1--2600 Meeting Disrupted by Secret Service?

On Friday, November 6, the Washington, D.C. 2600 meeting took place at
the Pentagon City Mall, but was broken up by mall security police.
There is preliminary evidence that the disruption may have involved
the United States Secret Service. If the USSS was involved in using
private security forces to disrupt civilians, their action appears to
not only exceed its mandate, but to be blatantly illegal. The
followings posts describe the details, but the basic facts are these:

1. The Mall's private security police appeared to engage in a
well-organized and well-coordinated sweep of those participating in
the meeting. Although there are restrictions that may limit gatherings
on mall property, there was no apparent indication that the sweep was
prompted by such restrictions.

2.  The Mall's head of security, Al Johnson (703-415-3410) claimed
that the FBI and USSS "ramrodded" the operation. Although he has since
denied making the claim, his comments were recorded by Brock Meeks, a
reporter for CommDaily. Meeks subsequently called both the FBI and
Secret Service. The FBI denied any participation.  Meeks' report of
the USSS response suggests they were present at the time. We have read
a transcript of Al Johnson's response to Meeks, and Johnson explicitly
and unequivocally states that he considered it a USSS operation and
that as far as he's concerned, the mall police are "out of it," and he
referred Meeks to the USSS (See transcript in file #7).

3. Either Al Johnson is lying or Meeks fabricated the tape.  Meeks is
a highly respected journalist known for accuracy and credibility. His
integrity has never been questioned, and we find it incomprehensible
that he fabricated the tape. It seems more likely that Johnson either
glibly named external agencies to cover up the actions of security
forces or that he initially spoke the truth then realized (or was
told) that he should not indicate external involvement. The USSS's
response, which appears to make them complicit in, if not initiaters
of, the action, indicates, as John McMullen's final article reveals,
that they were fully aware of the incident.

4. Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR) has filed a
Freedom of Information request with the USSS in an attempt to obtain
further information of USSS involvement.

If, in fact, the USSS was involved, it reflects an outrageous and
totally unacceptable abuse of authority and power.  If they were
involved, it indicates that they have learned little from the
Operation Sun Devil abuses and that it is time to curtail their power.
If they were involved, their actions represent a direct challenge to
Constitutional principles of freedom of speech and assembly.

If those attending the 2600 meeting violated mall policies against
assembly that limit the size and nature of public gatherings, it is
fully legitimate for mall security personnel to intervene.  However,
if the intervention was a premediated action in which the USSS
participated, then the forces designated to protect the Constitution
have over-stepped their bounds and threaten once again to subvert the
principles they are sworn to protect.

This is not simply a cyberspace issue. If the USSS was involved, it
raises the issue of the relationship between government police actions
and the Constitutional freedoms that ostensibly protect us against
unwarranted control of basic rights.  It is an issue that should be of
concern to everyone.  Slippery slopes are highly dangerous terrain.

The following posts provide additional details. The Newsbytes pieces
are reproduced here with permission.

------------------------------

Date:  Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:52:13 -0500
From: emmanuel@well.sf.ca.us
Subject: File 2--2600 Meeting Disrupted by Law Enforcement

On Friday, November 6th, the 2600 meeting in Washington DC was
disrupted by assorted law enforcement people. Details are still coming
in at this point but there are some details that have been
corroborated by a number of people. This is what we know:  Shortly
after the gathering commenced at the Pentagon City Mall, the 30 or so
people who were there were surrounded by mall security who demanded
that everyone consent to searches. They were told that if they refused
to be searched, they'd be arrested. Everyone's bags were gone through
and lots of personal property was confiscated including notebooks,
school work, various tools, a computer keyboard, and many other items.
The security guards were in radio contact with others on a balcony who
had been watching the group. One of the attendees was detained by
security who would neither arrest him nor let him go. After about 10
minutes, he was released. Some property was returned but much was not.
No receipts were given and, at one point, the security guards denied
having anything at all. They then said that if they did have anything,
the attendees would have to return the next week with proof of
ownership. The mall police were later joined by local Virginia police,
who told the group they would be arrested if they didn't leave the
mall immediately. In addition to searching everybody, the police took
down the names of everyone present.

At this point it doesn't look as if there was anything illegal going
on or anything illegal in anyone's possession. It also should be noted
that the mall police said they were acting on behalf of the Secret
Service. The local police would only say they were gathering
information for an "outside party".

The following is from Bob Stratton, one of our people on the scene:

I hope that someone like Inhuman might be able to fill in the details,
but just as a brief...

+++++

     I showed up late to the 2600 meeting in DC tonight, and I found
everyone outside on the sidewalk instead of in the food court of the
normal meeting place. Evidently they were hassled severely by the mall
security officers, who took ID, confiscated all manner of property,
tore up the list of officers' names being compiled by one attendee,
and threatened to confiscate a camera being used by one attendee to
record the whole fiasco.

     The real police were called, and evidently made but a cursory
appearance, though some comment about working with the Secret Service
was made. The worst thing is that the private security officers who
took property later denied it, and people are now in a quandary as to
the best mechanism for recovery of their property.

     I was fortunate enough to have missed the worst of it, though I
do regret that I wasn't there earlier if only to tell the rent-a-cops
what I thought of them, and my knowledge of my rights.

     I know that several of the attendees called up to New York, to
Emmanuel Goldstein, and I'm interested in hearing his take on things.

     Film at 11.

   --Strat

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:17:34
From: jmcmullen@well.sf.ca.us
Subject: File 3--Reports Of "Raid" On 2600 Washington Meeting

((The following will appear on Newsbytes tomorrow. Newsbytes is a
commercial copyrighted service and this article is posted with the
express permission of the author (reposting is prohibited)))

WASHINGTON, D.C., U.S.A., 1992 NOV 7 (NB) -- Eric Corley, a/k/a
"Emmanuel Goldstein", editor and publisher of 2600 Magazine: The
Hacker Quarterly has told Newsbytes that the Friday, November November
6th 2600 meeting held in the Pentagon City Mall, outside of
Washington, DC. was disrupted by threats of arrest by mall security
officers and Arlington, VA police.

2600 Magazine promotes monthly meetings of hackers, press and other
interested parties throughout the country. The meetings are held in
public locations on the first Friday evening of the month and the
groups often contact each other by telephone during the meetings.
Corley told Newsbytes that meetings were held that evening in New
York, Washington, Philadelphia, Cambridge, St. Louis, Chicago, Los
Angeles and San Francisco. Corley said "While I am sure that meetings
have been observed by law enforcement agencies, this is the only time
that we have been harassed. It is definitely a freedom of speech
issue."

According to Craig Neidorf, who was present at the meeting handing out
applications for Computer Professionals For Social Responsibility
(CPSR), "I saw the security officers focusing on us. Then they started
to come toward us from a number of directions under what seemed to be
the direction of a person with a walkie-talkie on a balcony. When they
approached, I left the group and observed the security personnel
encircling the group of about 30 gatherers. The group was mainly
composed of high school and college students. The guards demanded to
search the knapsacks and bags of the gatherers. They confiscated
material, including CPSR applications, a copy of Mondo 2000 (a
magazine) and other material.  They also confiscated film from a
person trying to take pictures of the guards and, when a hacker called
"HackRat" attempted to copy down the names of the guards, they took
his pencil and paper."

Neidorf continued, "I left to go outside and rejoined the group when
they were ejected from the mall. The guards continued challenging the
group and told them that they would be arrested if they returned. When
one of the people began to take pictures of the guards, the apparent
supervisor became excited and threatening but did not confiscate the
film."

Neidorf also said "I think that the raid was planned. They hit right
about 6:00 and they identified our group as "hackers" and said that
they knew that this group met every month."

Neidorf's story was supported by a Washington "hacker" called
"Inhuman", who told Newsbytes "I arrived at the meeting late and saw
the group being detained by the guards. I walked along with the group
as they were being ushered out and when I asked a person who seemed to
be in authority his name, he pointed at a badge with his name written
in script on it. I couldn't make out the name and, when I mentioned
that to the person, he said 'If you can't read it, too bad.' I did
read his name, 'C. Thomas', from another badge."

Inhuman also told Newsbytes that, while he did not hear it said, he
was told by a number of people that the guards said that they were
'acting on behalf of the Secret Service. "I was also told that there
were two police officers there from the Arlington County Police
present but I did not see them."

Another attendee, Doug Luce posted an account of his on an NY BBS and
gave Newsbytes permission to quote Luce wrote "I also got to the DC
meeting very late; 7:45 or so. It seemed like a coordinated harassment
episode, not geared toward busting anyone, but designed to get people
riled up, and maybe not come back to the mall. A couple of the things
I overheard:  someone had brought a keyboard to sell, and the cops had
harassed him about it, saying 'You aren't selling anything in my mall
without a vendors permit!' Blaize (another attendee) says that maybe
his handcuffing Hack Rat might have set the cops off; or maybe it was
the Whisper 2000 that the cops were convinced was a stun gun. The word
is that there was stuff taken and not given back, wires and soldering
tools.  There is also the rumor that the cops were going through
everyone's bags and belongings, and that some people were detained.
While the thrust of the effort seemed to be mall security, there are
conflicting reports about supporting personnel.  Some people said that
the SS (Secret Service) might have been there, others thought the FBI
or plainclothes city officers were assisting (or coordinating).
Supposedly, several of them had removed their name tags before moving
in."

Luce's reference to possible Secret Service involvement was supported
by a 19 year-old college student known as the "Lithium Bandit", who
told Newsbytes "I got to the mall about 6:15 and saw the group being
detained by approximately 5 Arlington County police and 5 security
guards. When I walked over to see what was going on, a security guard
asked me for an ID and I refused to show it saying that I was about to
leave. The guard said that I couldn't leave and told me that I had to
see a police officer. When I did, the officer demanded ID and, when I
once again refused, informed me that I could be detained for up to 10
hours for refusing to produce identification. I gave in and produced
my school ID which the police gave to the security people who copied
down my name and social security number."

Lithium Bandit continued "When I asked the police what was behind this
action, I was told that they couldn't answer but that "the Secret
Service is involved and we are within our rights doing this. I and
some others later went to the Arlington police station to attempt to
get more information. I was told only that there was a report of the
use of a stolen credit card and 2 officers sent to investigate -- they
later admitted that it was 5. While I was detained, I heard no mention
of a credit card and there was no one arrested."

Marc Rotenberg, director of CPSR's Washington office, told Newsbytes
"I have really no details on the incident yet but I am very concerned
about the reports and confiscation of CPSR applications, if true, is
outrageous.  I will find out more facts on Monday.

Newsbytes was told by the Pentagon City Mall office that any
information concerning the action would have to come from the director
of security, Al Johnson, who will not be available until Monday. The
Arlington Country Police referred Newsbytes to a "press briefing
recording" which had not been updated since the morning before the
incident.

Corley told Newsbytes "there have been no reports of misbehavior by
any of these people. They were obviously singled out because they were
hackers.  It's as if they were being singled out as an ethnic group. I
admire the way the group responded -- in a courteous fashion but it is
inexcusable that it happened. I will be at the next Washington meeting
to insure that it doesn't happen again."

The manager of one of New York state's largest malls provided
background information to Newsbytes on the rights of malls to police
those on mall property, saying "The primary purpose of a mall is to
sell. The interior of the mall is private property and is subject to
the regulations of the mall. The only requirement is that the
regulations be enforced in an even-handed manner. I do not allow
political activities in my mall so I could not make an exception for
Democrats. We do allow community groups to meet but they must request
space at least two weeks before the meeting and must have proper
insurance. Our regulations also say that groups of more than 4 may not
congregate in the mall. We would ask groups larger than that to
disperse. We would also ask for identification from those who violate
our regulations so that we may bar them from the mall for a period of
6 months."

She added "Some people feel that mall atriums and food courts are
public space. They are not and the industry is united on this. If the
malls were to receive tax benefits for the common space and public
service in snow removal and the like, it could possibly be a public
area but malls are taxed on the entire space and are totally private
property, subject to their own regulations. If a group of 20 or more
congregated in my mall, they would be asked to leave."

------------------------------

Date:  Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:52:13 -0500
From: emmanuel@well.sf.ca.us
Subject: File 4--More first-hand Accounts

((MODERATORS NOTE: The following first-hand accounts were collected
by Emmanuel Goldstein, editor of 2600)).

***************
ACCOUNT #1:


This is my personal statement as to exactly what happened during the
DC 2600 raid on Friday, November 7th 1992.  Granted I cannot remember
the exact dialogue that was exchanged, I will get the general meaning
of everything said and done, by both parties.

    I arrived at the 2600 meeting, with Loki, at approximately
4:30pm.  We headed towards the food court after looking throughout a
few electronics stores in interest to grab a bite to eat.  After
eating, we proceeded to the fourth floor, to scope out on everything
before the meeting actually started.  On the way up to the fourth
floor, we ran into Tomellicas.  We consulted for a few minutes, and
then all went up to the fourth floor.  We continued to hang out on the
fourth floor, and then we saw Albatross back down on the first floor,
so we hollered on got his attention, then proceeded back up to the
fourth floor.  Shortly after, Psionic Nemesis arrived on the scene.
We continued to hang out, then proceeded back to the first floor.

    After arriving down on the first floor, we moved tables together,
rearranged the seating layout, then proceeded with the meeting.
Knight Lightning arrived a little before 6:00 and handed out some
literature, along with a kooky little button.  People slowly arrived,
and the meeting was underway.

At this point, the fed scene started to pick up drastically.
Tomellicas was snapping pictures of every single fed (or what appeared
to be) there.  After chatting for awhile longer, Techno Caster, Hack
Rat, and a few others arrived (maybe not in that order).   Hack Rat
came over to my table, or part of the table, where I slapped my
handcuffs that I had brought on him.  At this time, Techno Caster had
showed his Whisper 2000 to Metal Head.  Immediately there after,
several members of the Mall Security task force <chuckle> surrounded
the area, demanding to see the 'stun gun'.  Naturally denying
everything about a stun gun, the hostility grew.  Finally one of the
guards saw what they thought was the stun gun, and pointed at the
Whisper 2000, which was in the hands of (I think) Metal Head.  Metal
Head told the officers "This?  This is *the* Whisper 2000!", the guard
examined it, questioned what we had it for, and basically just
pestered us some more.

One of the guards (who seemed to be the leader at this point) came
over across the table from me, and was looking at the stuff on the
center of the table, in front of Loki and myself.  Then, over his
walkie-talkie, I heard them say something about handcuffs.  Without
hesitating, the guard said "Who has the handcuffs?", I then said "I
do."  At this point the guard was examining my handcuffs, and
questioned me as to why I had them.  Basically telling him just
because I felt like it, did nothing but aggravate him, and the
situation.  He then asked me to produce identification.  I asked as to
why and the discussion went on for about sixty seconds, when I just
decided to give him my ID because I was just plain sick of this
ignorant discussion.  He copied everything down from it, and asked me
what my name was.  I simply asked him if he was having trouble reading
it, and he sneered at me.  At this point, the rest of the guards
started taking identification from others.  The guard who had took my
ID had asked Loki, sitting right across one side of the table from me,
to see the contents of his backpack.  Loki declined, and the guard
asked again.  The guard switched topics, and asked Loki to produce
identification.  Loki then handed him about 4 different forms of ID,
the only thing he was missing was a birth certificate.  The guard
asked to see the contents of his bag, and once again Loki declined.
The argument went back and forth for another minute or two, when Loki
boldly exclaimed "You cannot search my bag, but I will show you what
is in it."  Loki proceeded to show him everything in the bag at this
point.  After pulling a few things that looked very suspicious to the
guard out of his bag (read: after pulling a few soldered connections,
a bundle of phone cable, and a couple of electronic devices out of his
bag...).  At this time, I turned to my left to see a rather large guy
wearing a nice suit who appeared to be taking over the command of the
rent-a-cops.  I immediately asked him his name, or two see some form
of identification after he was doing the same to other people at the
meeting.  He flat out said "No.".  So I just sighed at the entire
ignorance of the man.  Tomellicas quickly snapped a few pictures of
him, and other guards there who wouldn't identify themselves.  The
guard literally took the film out of Tomellicas's camera at this
point.  Hack Rat had proceeded to make a list of the guards names who
were involved.  After the guards noticed this, they took the list Hack
Rat had compiled, and ripped it up, keeping the shreds.  At this
point, on the other side of my table, I watched Loki zipping his bag
back up after having a few things taken out of it.  The big guy in the
suit came and studied the stuff that had been taken out of his bag and
asked Loki what he was doing with it.  After exchanging words for
about 2 minutes, the big guy proceeded to research Loki's bag.  Noted
that Loki gave no permission for the guy to search it, he just plain
started going through it.  At this point I wanted my handcuffs back,
and I was out of there.  I couldn't handle this sort of police
harassment and basic bullshit.  I told the guard I wanted my handcuffs
back, and he refused.  I asked for a receipt, and he refused.  I said
"I'm leaving, I have better things to do than to be harassed by a
buncha rent-a-cops." <granted under my breath, but he still heard me>
he proceeded to say "Sit back down.".  At this point I just figured I
might as well do whatever they wanted so I could just go home and see
the Bulls game.

    This irrelevant search continued to go on for roughly a little
less than two hours.  None of the guards would give us any reason for
why we were being detained, or why we were being searched.  After
sitting there for roughly two hours, we were all starting to get a
little (lot) uptight about the whole situation and starting demanding
we know why we were being held there and searched.  One of the guards
said that he thought we had a stun gun and that's why we were being
searched.  I made it really clear to him that (a) stun guns are not
illegal in the state of virginia, and (b) after we showed him what he
(they) saw, and he saw that it was hardly a stun gun, but an amplified
sound device for deaf people, that he had no right to search us any
further, let alone everyone there.

Denying that these laws were infact true, he told me to shut up.
Laughing at his idiocy, I just sat there, preparing for hari-kari.
Finally, after about another thirty minutes of bullshit, we were told
to leave the mall immediately.  Not understanding why, myself and
others questioned him as to why we were being detained, searched, and
kicked out.  He gave no reason, except to say that this was private
property, and that if we did not leave, we would be arrested, by the
one Arlington County cop now on the scene.  Just wanting to go see the
Bulls game, I proceeded to leave, with Hack Rat, Tomellicas, and
someone else who I forgot was at this time.  We left the scene, and
proceeded to Crystal City Underground, where we met up with Techno
Caster and a couple others discussing the torment we had all just
experienced.

Let alone the embarrassment of all the people watching us over the
balcony.

Saturday, November 7th, 1992.  Hack Rat and I thought it would be wise
to contact the Pentagon Mall Security office on three-way.  I called
information, obtained the number (703/415-3410).  I called the number
and a lady picked up on the other end.  I told her that I would like
to speak with whoever was in charge, or present at the raid in the
food court last night.  She told me that nobody was there, they were
either sick, or not working today.  I told her "Out of the roughly 8
people there last night, they are all sick?  That's bullshit.  I want
to speak with someone who was there last night, or I want all of the
officers names, and the name of the person in charge."  She told me
I'd have to call back in 30 minutes.  I wait.

Thirty minutes later, Hack Rat and I call back.  The same lady answers
and I ask to speak to someone present, or the man in charge of the
food court raid last night.  She said please hold.  I was transfered
somewhere.  A man picked up the phone, this voice was very familiar,
and I could easily match it with the guy who took my handcuffs from
me, the one who told me to shut up.  I asked him what his name was,
and the names of everyone there, and of whoever was in charge.  He
said that he was not allowed to give that information out.  After
dealing with the idiocy for another 5 minutes, tension grew along with
the hostility.

After a little more social engineering, I was able to bs a name out of
him.  Al Johnson, who was supposedly the head of security.

After this, I called up Loki.  We called Fenris Wolf on three way.
Fenris told us that one of his parental units called the mall security
office to find that Loki's bag had been 'turned over to federal
authorities'.

Loki, never given a receipt for his bag, even after asking, was
extremely pissed at this point.

The Mad Hatter

*************************************

ACCOUNT #2:

dead cow #16 @1 [imic]

Sun Nov 08 15:21:42 1992

here's my story, as i witnessed it.

i was coming down the escalator when i noticed that there were a
bunch of people standing around and all these cops in the center. so i
rushed up to the center and asked the cops what was going on. the cop
said "i have nothing to say to you" so i asked who i could talk to. he
said that nobody had anything to say, that no one would talk to me.
then  i was questioned about my relation to this group. i denied any
relation. i was then asked to leave, at which point i moved over to a
group of 2600 people standing at a distance observing. i attempted to
ask them what was going on, but at that point the mall cop wearing a
bike outfit (what was with that guy?) asked us to leave. i walked most
of the way to the door then stopped  to remove my camera from my bag,
meanwhile asking if i could stay long enough to use the bathroom. they
told me that i had to use the metro bathroom. i said that i didn't
think there was one. they said yes, ask the attendant. i then got my
camera out and asked if i could take a picture. the guard said, in a
threatening voice, that if i took his pic he would take my film. i put
the camera in my pocket. i had a couple of old motherboards in my
hands, they asked me what they were, i said they were old
motherboards, they asked each other if (some guy who's name i didn't
catch) would be interested in these. i said they could have them if
they wanted, they were worth about $2. they said, no, they weren't
gonna take them, just leave. i stalled a few more times, and then they
said that if i stalled one mor time i would be arrested. i left the
mall at that pt.

we then went up the metro escalator, and stood around in a group at
the top of the escalator. the mall cops were there, in the mall
driveway, in their car.  at some point, a group of mall cops came out
and were very belligerent with someone. i stood back at a distance and
took a picture, then turned away and started walking. the cops yelled
after me, i gave my camera to another person.  they wanted my film, i
said i didn't have the camera. gentry jumped in and started arguing
with the man, telling him that it was legal to take the picture. the
man became very angry with gentry, and then started yelling about how
he was here not to warn us about leaving the area, but to tell us to
move our cars (all our cars were parked someplace else) from the curb,
where there were SOME cars, because the arlington cops were coming. we
said that we didn't have any cars, and he ignored that and proceded to
warn us again. then he turned and gestured at gentry with his hand. at
the same point gentry brought his hand up to scratch his head, and the
hands met. the mall cop became very angry and told gentry that if he
touched the mall cop  again he would do some thing (i forget the
threat) then we started talking about the camera, and the mall cop
denied that he had ever wanted the film. after that, the mall cop
left. then we left.

that's what happened..

dc

+++++++++++++

ACCOUNT #3:

Inhuman November 8th, 1992

What follows is my account of the events as I observed them at
Pentagon City Fashion Center Mall on the evening of Friday, November
6th.

    I arrived at the mall around 6:45 p.m., almost two hours after the
meeting began.  I recognized a group of people on the food court to be
part of the meeting and started heading towards them.  At this point,
I noticed that there were several mall security personnel and perhaps
other law enforcement officials (I'm not sure) spread throughout the
meeting area.  Most were just standing there, some were talking to the
meeting-goers.

    Since nothing too dangerous seemed to be happening, I walked into
the middle of the meeting area, looking at all the guards.  I asked
one of the meeting-goers what was going on and he said "We're being
detained."  I then asked one of the guards (a young caucasian blonde
male in a blue spandex biking outfit) what was going on.  He replied,
"You'll find out from your friends afterwards.  Why don't you go wait
with your friends over there.", indicating the group of people I
entered the mall with.

I left the food court.  Some of the guards looked slightly upset that
I was leaving, but made no move to stop me.  I waited out-of-view of
the food court for about five minutes and then returned.  At this
point, meeting-goers were just beginning to leave the food court area
in the direction of the mall exit, apparently having been released
from their detention.  Guards remained on the outskirts of the group,
directing them towards the exit.

    I asked one of the guards (a middle-aged heavy-set
african-american male) if we had to leave, and he said yes.  When I
protested, he threatened to arrest me for trespassing since "this is
private property."  When I asked what his name was, he pointed to his
name tag.  The name tag had nothing more than a legal signature on it,
which was quite unreadable.  When asked him what his name was again,
explaining that I couldn't read his name tag, he said, "You can't read
my name tag?  Too bad."  Then I noticed he had another name tag with
"C. Thomas" clearly printed on it.  At this point, Dead Cow, who was
nearby, asked if he could take the guard's picture.  The guard said
that if he did, he would take the film out of the camera.  When then
left the mall, along with the rest of the group.

    We waited in the Metrorail (D.C. public transportation) access
tunnel directly outside of the mall for a while, gathering information
from each other and deciding on a course of action.

    We went upstairs and outside, to a small bank of payphones near
the Metro entrance and near the mall's outside entrance.  One of the
meeting-goers, Lithium Bandit, called the Washington Post and
recounted the story, hoping to get a reporter to the scene.  They said
they would call back if they were interested.  Several suggestions
were made to call News Channel 8, a cable 24-hours-a-day local news
channel, but the call was never made.  About twenty of us remained at
this point, there having been around forty total.

    About ten minutes later, the mall security guards reappeared.  I
was on the phone with Emmanuel Goldstein at the time, so I didn't see
the initial interactions, and I'm still not clear what they were
trying to tell us to do this time, as we were no longer on private
property.  At some point, Dead Cow took his camera out and took a
couple pictures of the scene.  At this, the guards, especially C.
Thomas, became incensed.  Thomas demanded the film, somehow claiming
that Dead Cow was not allowed to take a picture of him.  The film
remained in our possesion.  Then Gentry, another meeting-goer, began
to get in an argument with C. Thomas over Dead Cow's right to take his
picture, and the general rights violations that had occured already.
At some point, Gentry apparently touched C. Thomas in an inadvertent
manner.  Thomas then yelled very loudly, "Don't TOUCH me!" and made
some threat about what he would do if Gentry touched him again.

    People began to leave now, to regroup at the Crystal City
Underground, including me, so thus ends my account.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:17:35
From: jmcmullen@well.sf.ca.us
Subject: File 5--Confusion About Secret Service Role D.C. "Raid"

((The following will appear on Newsbytes. Newsbytes is a copyrighted
commercial service and its material may not be reproduced. This
article is posted with the express permission of the authors.))

WASHINGTON, D.C., U.S.A., 1992 NOV 7 (NB) -- In the aftermath of an
action on Friday, November 6th by members of the Pentagon City Mall
Police and police from Arlington County, VA in which those attending a
2600 meeting at the mall were ordered from the premises, conflicting
stories continue to appear.

Attendees at the meeting have contended to Newsbytes that members of
the mall police told them that they were "acting on behalf of the
Secret Service.". They also maintain that the mall police confiscated
material from knapsacks and took film from someone attempting to
photograph the action and a list of the names of security officers
that one attendee was attempting to compile.

Al Johnson, chief of security for the mall, denied these allegations
to Newsbytes, saying "No one said that we were acting on behalf of the
Secret Service. We were merely enforcing our regulations. While the
group was not disruptive, it had pulled tables together and was having
a meeting in our food court area. The food court is for people eating
and is not for meetings. We therefore asked the people to leave."

Johnson denied that security personnel took away any film or lists and
further said "We did not confiscate any material. The group refused to
own up to who owned material on the tables and in the vicinity so we
collected it as lost material. If it turns out that anything did
belong to any of those people, they are welcome to come in and, after
making proper identification, take the material."

In a conversation early on November 9th, Robert Rasor, Secret Service
agent-in-charge of computer crime investigations, told Newsbytes that
having mall security forces represent the Secret Service is not
something that was done and, that to his knowledge, the Secret Service
had no involvement with any Pentagon City mall actions on the previous
Friday.

A Newsbytes call to the Arlington County police was returned by a
Detective Nuneville who said that her instructions were to refer all
questions concerning the matter to agent David Adams of the Secret
Service. She told Newsbytes that Adams would be providing all
information concerning the involvement of both the Arlington Police
and the Secret Service in the incident.

Adams told Newsbytes "The mall police were not acting as agents for
the Secret Service. Beyond that, I can not confirm or deny that there
is an ongoing investigation."

Adams also told Newsbytes that "While I cannot speak for the Arlington
police, I understand that their involvement was due to an incident
unrelated to the investigation."

Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington office of Computer
Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR), told Newsbytes "CPSR
has reason to believe that the detention of people at the Pentagon
City Mall last Friday was undertaken at the behest of the Secret
Service, which is a federal agency. If that is the case, then there
was an illegal search of people at the mall. There was no warrant and
no indication of probable illegal activity. This raises constitutional
issues. We have undertaken the filing of a Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA) request to determine the scope, involvement and purpose of the
Secret Service in this action."

2600 meetings are held on the evening of the first Friday of each
month in public places and malls in New York City, Washington,
Philadelphia, Cambridge, St. Louis, Chicago, Los Angeles and San
Francisco. They are promoted by 2600 Magazine: The Hacker Quarterly
and are attended by a variety of persons interested in
telecommunications and so-called "hacker issues". The New York
meeting, the oldest of its kind, is regularly attended by Eric Corley
a/k/a Emmanuel Goldstein, editor and publisher of 2600, hackers,
journalists, corporate communications professionals and other
interested parties. It is known to have been the subject of
surveillance at various times by law enforcement agencies conducting
investigations into allegations of computer crime.

Corley told Newsbytes "While I'm sure that meetings have been observed
by law enforcement agencies, this is the only time that we have been
harassed. It's definitely a freedom of speech issue." Corley also that
he plans to be at the December meeting in Washington "to insure that
it doesn't happen again."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:17:34
From: jmcmullen@well.sf.ca.us
Subject: File 6--Conflicting Stories In 2600 Raid; CRSR Files FOIA

((The following will appear on Newsbytes. Newsbytes is a copyrighted
commercial service and its material may not be reproduced. This
article is posted with the express permission of the authors.))

WASHINGTON, D.C., U.S.A., 1992 NOV 11 (NB) --  In the on-going
investigation of possible Secret Service involvement in the Friday,
November 6th ejection of attendees at a "2600 meeting" from the
premises of the Pentagon City Mall, diametrically opposed statements
have come from the same source.

Al Johnson, chief of security for the Pentagon City Mall told
Newsbytes on Monday, November 9th "No one said that we were acting on
behalf of the Secret Service. We were merely enforcing our
regulations. While the group was not disruptive, it had pulled tables
together and was having a meeting in our food court area. The food
court is for people eating and is not for meetings. We therefore asked
the people to leave."

On the same day, Johnson was quoted was quoted in a Communications
Daily article by Brock Meeks as saying "As far as I'm concerned, we're
out of this.  The Secret Service, the FBI, they're the ones that
ramrodded this whole thing."

Newsbytes contacted Meeks to discuss the discrepancies in the stories
and were informed that the conversation with Johnson had been taped
and was available for review. The Newsbytes reporter listened to the
tape (and reviewed a transcript). On the tape, Johnson was clearly
heard to make the statement quoted by Meeks.

He also said "maybe you outta call the Secret Service, they're
handling this whole thing.  We, we were just here", and, in response
to a Meeks question about a Secret Service contact, "Ah.. you know, I
don't have a contact person.  These people were working on their own,
undercover, we never got any names, but they definitely, we saw
identification, they were here."

Newsbytes contacted Johnson again on the morning of Wednesday,
November 11 and asked him once again whether there was any Secret
Service involvement in the action. Johnson said "No, I told you that
they were not involved." When it was mentioned that there was a story
in Communications Daily, quoting him to the  contrary, Johnson said "I
never told Meeks that. There was no Secret Service involvement"

Informed of the possible existence of a tape quoting him to the
contrary.  Johnson said "Meeks taped me? He can't do that. I'll show
him that I'm not fooling around. I'll have him arrested."

Johnson also said "He asked me if the Secret Service was involved; I
just told him that, if he thought they were, he should call them and
ask them."

Then Johnson again told Newsbytes that the incident was "just a mall
problem. There were too many people congregating."

[NOTE: Newsbytes stands by its accurate reporting of Johnson's
statements.  It also affirms that the story by Meeks accurately
reflects the material taped during his interview]

In a related matter, Marc Rotenberg, director of the Washington office
of Computer Professionals For Social Responsibility (CPSR) has
announced that CPSR has filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)
request with the Secret Service asking for information concerning
Secret Service involvement in the incident.

Rotenberg told Newsbytes that the Secret Service has 10 days to
respond to the request. He also said that CPSR "is exploring other
legal options in this matter."

The Secret Service, in earlier conversations with Newsbytes, has
denied that the mall security was working on its behalf.

In the incident itself, a group attending the informal meeting was
disbanded and, according to attendees, had property confiscated. They
also contend that security guards took film from someone photographing
the confiscation as well as a list that someone was making of the
guard's names.  In his November 9th conversation with Newsbytes,
Johnson denied that security personnel took away any film or lists and
further said "We did not confiscate any material. The group refused to
own up to who owned material on the tables and in the vicinity so we
collected it as lost material. If it turns out that anything did
belong to any of those people, they are welcome to come in and, after
making proper identification, take the material."

2600 meetings are promoted by 2600 Magazine: The Hacker Quarterly and
are held on the evening of the first Friday of each month in public
places and malls in New York City, Washington, Philadelphia,
Cambridge, St.  Louis, Chicago, Los Angeles and San Francisco. They
are regularly attended by a variety of persons interested in
telecommunications and so-called "hacker issues".

(Barbara E. McMullen & John F. McMullen/19921111)

------------------------------

Date: Wed 11 Nov 1992 19:34:56
From: Moderators<tk0jut2@mvs.cso.niu.edu>
Subject: File 7--Transcript from Al Johnson Interview

((MODERATORS' NOTE: Al Johnson, Director of Security for the Pentagon
City Mall, has denied saying that the US Secret Service was involved
in the 2600 disruption, and he has given other news sources a
different version than he gave to Brock Meeks. The following are Al
Johnson's original comments as transcribed from the original
conversation.  We leave it to readers to decide for themselves what Al
Johnson said in the initial interview.))

Further information may be obtained from Brock Meeks at:
(202) 872-9202 ex. 271; or
2115 Ward Ct. NW, Washington, DC 20037
+++++

Transcript of interview with Mr. Al Johnson, Dir. Security for
Pentagon City Mall

B. Meeks:  I'd like to ask you a few questions about an incident where
some of your security guards broke up a meeting of some hackers
on Friday (Nov. 6).

Al Johnson:  They broke up some meeting of hackers?

B. Meeks: Yes.

AJ:  I don't know about breaking any meeting up.  Who... first of
all I can't talk to you on the phone, if you want to come in, I
don't talk to the press on the phone.

B. Meeks: OK

AJ:  Ahh... maybe you outta call the Secret Service, they're
handling this whole thing.  We, we were just here.

B. Meeks:  the Secret Service was part of this?

AJ:  Well, FBI, Secret Service, everybody was here, so you might
want to call their office and talk to them.  There's not much I
can really tell you here.

B. Meeks: OK

AJ:  Our involvement was minimum, you know, minimal.

B. Meeks:  I see, but your folks were acting on...

AJ:  We didn't break anything... I.. we didn't.. as far as I
know, well I can't say much on the phone.  But I, well,
somebody's awfully paranoid apparently.  Where'd you get this
information from?

B. Meeks:  Umm.... from computer bulletin boards

AJ:  Bulletin Boards?

B. Meeks: Yep.

AJ:  When did you get it?

B. Meeks: I got it, ah, Sunday night.

AJ:  Sunday night?

B. Meeks:  Yep.

AJ:  [small laugh]  Ah, yeah, you gotta call the FBI and the
Secret Service there's not much I can do for you here.

B. Meeks:  Ok.  Al, if I come down there will you talk to me to down
there?

AJ:  No.  I can't talk to you at all.  Fact is, there's nothing
to talk about.  Our involvement in anything was minimal, I don't
know where this information came from as far as bulletin boards,
and breaking meetin's up and you know...

B. Meeks:  Well, the Arlington police were down there too.  I mean I've
talked to several of the kids that were involved.

AJ:  Um-hmmm

B. Meeks:  They said, that ah, members of your, of the mall security
forces, ah, or security staff, searched them, confiscated some
material and didn't give it back.  Did any of this happen?

AJ:  Like I said, I'm not, I'm not able to talk to you... we have
a policy that we don't talk to the press about anything like
that.  You can call the Secret Service, call the FBI, they're the
ones that ramrodded this whole thing, and you talk to them, we're
out of this basically, you know, as far as I'm concerned here.

B. Meeks:  Ok.  Is there a contact person over there that you can...

AJ:  Ah.. you know, I don't have a contact person.  These people
were working on their own, undercover, we never got any names,
but they definitely, we saw identification, they were here.

B. Meeks:  They were there.  So it was all the Secret Service and none
of your men?

AJ:  Ah, nah, that's not what I said.  But they're the ones you
want to talk to.  There's nothing I can really ya.  Okay?

B. Meeks:  Okay.

AJ:  Thanks.

B. Meeks: Bye.

------------------------------

End of Computer Underground Digest #4.57
************************************